Marriage, Morals, and the Constitution Joseph Shine v. Union of India – Part II/II

1,503 Comments

Marriage, Morals, and the Constitution: Joseph Shine v. Union of India – Part II/II

– Thulasi K. Raj and Maitreyi Hegde

In this part, we will be highlighting how the decision in Joseph Shine is deficient in its structural analysis on the right to privacy.

Privacy and evaluative tools

An important argument of the Petitioner revolved around how the impugned provisions violated the fundamental right to privacy under Article 21 by interfering with the right to voluntary, consensual sexual intercourse between adults. This submission proceeded in three steps – first, the constitution guarantees a right to privacy [1]. Secondly, the right to privacy necessarily contains within it the right to sexual autonomy. The right to privacy is understood as the ‘freedom of personal choice in matters of marriage and family life’ (Cleveland Board of Education v. LaFleur, 414 U.S. 632 (1974)), the decision whether to use or not use contraceptives (Griswold v. Connecticut, 381 U. S. 479), and the acceptance of the fact that different individuals will make different choices.” (Bowers v. Hardwick, 478 U.S. 186 (1986) (per the dissenting judgment of J. Blackmun)). It is fair to ask, “does the Constitution, therefore, recognize as an aspect of our fundamental right to privacy only those decisions within the marriage deemed by the state to be the right ones?” [2].

The third step, the crucial point in the argumentation was that there is no good reason to discriminate between sexual intercourse outside or inside marriage and between sex based on the marital status of both or either of the individuals. Regardless of how abominable the State thinks extra-marital sexual conduct is, that is no reason to criminalise conduct or to constitute a ‘compelling state interest.’ The right to extramarital sexual conduct stands protected by the “rights to privacy and intimate association.” (Janelle Perez v. City Of Roseville US Court of Appeals, No. 15-16430, 2018).

It was categorically argued that the right to sexual freedom necessarily includes the right to choose one’s sexual partner, even when one person is legally married to another. Penalising the adulterous relationship infringes the right to choose the sexual partner or the right to make one’s sexual preferences. S.497 therefore violates the fundamental right to sexual privacy. This also echoes the sentiment expressed by Chelameswar J. in Puttaswamy : “I do not think that anybody would like to be told by the state as to what they should eat or how they should dress or whom they should be associated with either in their personal, social or political life.”

Once it is convincingly established that there is a right to privacy to engage in extra-marital conduct, it follows that the state cannot criminalise it except by demonstrating permissible grounds for infringing with a fundamental right. Penalising an action, especially when it is liberty infringing is flatly unconstitutional.

However, the privacy concerns were insufficiently addressed by the Court.  The judgment by Misra, CJI and Khanwilkar J. did hold that “if (adultery) is treated as a crime, there would be immense intrusion into the extreme privacy of the matrimonial sphere” (Para. 49). However, the crucial link between the fundamental right to privacy and criminalisation seems apparently lacking. The majority and the concurring judgments, with the exception of Chandrachud J. have a visible hesitation to emphatically hold that there is a fundamental right to consensual sex outside marriage. However, no other principle can satisfactorily explain the constraint on the state to criminalise a conduct.

As David A. J. Richards argues, a person’s autonomy is the centre of the human rights approach. On individual autonomy, there is an enriched jurisprudence developed by the constitutional courts in India. The right to autonomy was consistently held to be an inalienable part of right to life under Article 21 [3]. In Navtej Singh Johar, the Supreme Court recognised that sexual autonomy is protected by our Constitution. Interestingly, several of the references (Paras. 25-41) on privacy in Joseph Shine pertain to the right to dignity of the individual, which is quite different from an independent right to sexual autonomy and choice.

Hence, even when the greater part of the judgment elaborately focused on the right to dignity, it failed to explore the violation of right to one’s sexual autonomy as part of right to dignity. Therefore, the Court could have developed a sophisticated theory of sexual privacy, taking cue from Navtej Singh Johar and a well-established foreign jurisprudence [4]. This absence of a detailed exploration on the right to privacy remains a fatal shortfall of the judgment.

Various methods are adopted for testing the constitutionality of criminal laws across different jurisdictions [5]. The test adopted by the Constitution Court of South Korea is instructive in this regard. When the criminal law on adultery was challenged as violative of the constitutional rights of privacy and self-determination, the Court successfully examined the impugned statute in terms of appropriateness, effectiveness and side effects of the criminal law. It also considered the nature and excessiveness of the criminal punishment. The Court evolved questions on how the State can enter into the private realm of an individual’s life, what is the outer limit of the right to privacy, and to what State intrusion is permissible. Further, the adverse impact of criminal penalty on matrimonial homes was also considered.  Such a systematic evaluation is absent in Joseph Shine. A great part of the judgment failed to employ an independent evaluation methodology – a proportionality type test – to examine the impugned statutory provisions.

However, as highlighted in the previous post, there still are reasons to celebrate the judgment. In the emerging liberty jurisprudence, Joseph Shine will remain unquestionably prominent. It asserts that the State cannot impose moralistic notions of right and wrong on individuals. It clearly bifurcates subjective popular morality from constitutional morality. It resonates with Dale Carpenter’s comment on Lawrence v. Texas 539 U.S. 558 (2003), where sexual autonomy was constitutionally recognized, “the deeper answer is that Lawrence, in all its emotional, social, and legal complexity, is a reflection of life itself. People do indeed lead complex lives. They fall in love, cheat, lie, drink. None of this makes them any less entitled, as Justice Kennedy put it, to “respect for their private lives.” If it were otherwise, there would be very few people – gay or straight – entitled to liberty. [6]

(The authors are lawyers who appeared in the Supreme Court on behalf of the Petitioner along with Adv. Kaleeswaram Raj in Joseph Shine v. Union of India)


[1] See K.S Puttaswamy v. Union of India, (2017) 10 SCC 1, Ram Jethmalani v. Union of India, (2011) 8 SCC 1, R. Rajagopal alias R.R. Gopal and another v. State of Tamil Nadu, (1994) 6 SCC 632, PUCL v. Union of India, (1997) 1 SCC 301, Gobind v. State of M.P. ,(1975)2 SCC 148.

[2] Martin J. Siegel, For Better or for. Worse: Adultery, Crime & the Constitution, 1991 30 J. FAM. L. 45, 71.

[3] Gobind v. State of M.P., (1975)2 SCC 148, Selvi v. State of Karnataka, (2010) 7 SCC 263, Common Cause v. Union of India, (2018) 5 SCC 1, Khushboo v. Kanniammal and another,  (2010) 5 SCC 600, K.S. Puttaswamy v. Union of India and Others, (2017) 10 SCC 1, Shakti Vahini v. Union of India, (2018) 7 SCC 192, Shafin Jahan v. Ashokan K.M. and others, 2018 SCC OnLine SC 343.

[4] Relating to marriage, Loving v. Virginia, 388 U. S. 1, 388 U. S. 12 (967); procreation, Skinner v. Oklahoma ex rel. Williamson, 316 U. S. 535, 316 U. S. 541-542 (1942); contraception, Eisenstadt v. Baird, 405 U.S. at 405 U. S. 453-454; id. at 405 U. S. 460, 405 U. S. 463-465 (WHITE, J., concurring in result); family relationships, Prince v. Massachusetts, 321 U. S. 158, 321 U. S. 166 (1944); and childrearing and education, Pierce v. Society of Sisters, 268 U. S. 510, 268 U. S. 535 (1925); Meyer v. Nebraska, [262 U.S. 390, 262 U. S. 399 (1923)” as per Carey v. Population Services International, 431 U.S. 678 (1977).

[5] See Benjamin L. Berger, Constitutional Principles in Substantive Criminal Law, (2014), Forthcoming in The Oxford Handbook of Criminal Law, Osgoode Legal Studies Research Paper Series, 54 http://digitalcommons.osgoode.yorku.ca/olsrps/54.

[6] See Dale Carpenter, Flagrant Conduct: The Story of Lawrence v. Texas at 281 W. W. Norton Company, 2012, as cited by H. Hunter Bruton, The Questionable Constitutionality of Curtailing Cuckolding: Alienation-Of-Affection and Criminal-Conversation Torts, 65 Duke Law Journal 755 (2016).

About NLSIR

    You May Also Like

    1,503 comments on “Marriage, Morals, and the Constitution Joseph Shine v. Union of India – Part II/II

    1. 01/01/2019 at 6:43 AM

      What Does Levitra Do cialis 5mg Viagra Prescriptions Over Internet Acheter Cialis Ligne France Cuanto Cuesta Cialis En La Farmacia Cialis Generico Prezzo In Farmacia Levitra Wirkt Nicht Dog Uti Cephalexin Levitra Efectos Secundarios 2 Clomid Part Jour cialis canada Prescription Free Cialis Levitra Novartis Blackmarket Cilias Donde Comprar Viagra Sin Receta En Barcelona buy viagra Provera Purchase Cash Delivery Cheapeast Visa Accepted Pediatric Dosage Of Amoxicillin Propecia Side Effects Bumps Buy Z Pack Over The Internet Prix De Cytotec viagra Aacifemine Clomid Viagra Efectos Foro cheapest cialis Cialis 200mg Pills Kitten Amoxicillin Dosage

    2. 16/01/2019 at 8:25 AM

      Prezzo Kamagra Germania viagra Methylprednisolone Black Market Order Zithromax Online Without Prescription Boutique Levitra En Ligne cheap cialis Baclofene Traitement Addictions Order Synthroid Online Amoxicillin Ca Viagra Price List India 253 cheap cialis Levitra Effets Secondaires Isotretinoin find What Is Amoxicillin Rx655 Viagra Non Fa Male Cheapest Generic Cialis Uk Generic Viagra Sildenafil 100mg buy cialis Vergleich Viagra Cialis Levitra Pharmacie Ligne Vente Cialis Vente Cialis cialis Buy Cheap Diflucan Online

    3. 22/01/2019 at 3:21 PM

      Amoxicilline Clavulanate De Potassium Priligy Prospecto п»їcialis Viagra Online Bestellen In Deutschland Viagra Shipped From United States Cephalexin Not Tabs Tipos De Viagra Roaccutane 5mg cialis from canada No Prescription Levora Proventil Price Zyban Kaufen cialis 40 mg Generic Levaquin Medication Low Price Pharmacy Affitto Levitra 10 Mg cheapest cialis Viagra A Casa Viagra Et Performance

    4. 22/01/2019 at 4:57 PM

      Hi. I have checked your nlsir.com and i see you’ve got some duplicate content so
      probably it is the reason that you don’t rank hi
      in google. But you can fix this issue fast. There is a tool that generates content like human, just
      search in google: miftolo’s tools

    5. 31/01/2019 at 10:38 AM

      Where Can I Purchase Dapoxetine? Propecia Merck 1 Mg Buy Prevacid 24 Hr cialis Viagra Pfizer Acheter

    6. 09/02/2019 at 3:00 AM

      Le Prix Du Cialis cialis overnight shipping from usa Strattera Online I Would Like To Purchase Cialis Diferencia Entre Viagra Y Cialis Combo Packs Viagra Cialis Buy Now Finasteride Oratane Order Renova Cheap Viagra Hace Dano Vardenafil Levitra Precio Prix Du Levitra 10 Mag cialis prices Cialis Compresse 20 Mg Usa Overnight Pharmacy

    7. 23/02/2019 at 8:11 AM

      Vipps Approved Canadian Pharmacies Bestellung Viagra Soft viagra Acheter Viagra France

    8. 12/03/2019 at 11:00 AM

      Domperidon 10mg For Sale Canedian Pharmacy Photo Propecia Finasteride prix de levitra au maroc Buy Kelnor Online Canada Kamagra Achat En Ligne Fast Ship Viagra

    9. 14/03/2019 at 5:33 PM

      I am so grateful for your article. Really Great.

    10. I value the article post.Much thanks again. Fantastic.

    11. 17/03/2019 at 12:51 AM

      canadian pharmacy online cialis
      buy cialis
      cialis tablets vega
      buy cialis online

    12. 17/03/2019 at 11:26 AM

      actress in viagra commercial
      buy viagra
      prices for viagra
      generic viagra online

    13. 17/03/2019 at 11:28 AM

      http://www.cialisggnrx.com/
      purchase cheap cialis soft tabs
      buy generic cialis online
      buy cialis pill
      buy generic cialis online

    14. 17/03/2019 at 10:13 PM

      online viagra
      buy generic viagra online
      natural viagra substitutes
      buy viagra online

    15. 17/03/2019 at 10:21 PM

      mixing levitra and viagra cialis pills cialis
      cialis online
      buy generic cialis uk
      cialis online

    16. 18/03/2019 at 12:54 AM

      I intended to write you this little observation to help thank you as before relating to the pretty guidelines you have discussed in this case. It has been certainly seriously generous with you to allow easily all many people could possibly have distributed as an e-book to get some money for themselves, notably seeing that you could possibly have done it in the event you desired. Those suggestions also worked to be a good way to fully grasp that other individuals have similar desire similar to my personal own to grasp very much more on the subject of this condition. I think there are numerous more pleasurable opportunities in the future for folks who scan through your website.

    17. 18/03/2019 at 7:42 AM

      247 loans
      payday usa loans
      personal loans san diego
      personal loans

    18. 18/03/2019 at 8:10 AM

      personal loans with bad credit
      loans online
      how to get a loan online
      loans online

    19. 18/03/2019 at 8:53 AM

      prices cialis 20mg
      generic cialis online
      canada cialis generic sudden hearing loss cialis
      buy generic cialis

    20. 18/03/2019 at 9:35 PM

      generic cialis vs brand ci
      cialis online
      cialis 5 mg online
      generic cialis

    21. 19/03/2019 at 5:09 PM

      Thanks-a-mundo for the blog article.Thanks Again. Really Cool.

    22. 20/03/2019 at 4:48 AM

      personal unsecured loans for bad credit
      payday advance
      badcredit loans
      payday loans online same day

    23. 20/03/2019 at 5:00 AM

      where can i get a loan fast
      money loans online
      north carolina payday loans
      payday loans online

    24. 20/03/2019 at 2:56 PM

      payday loan companies not brokers
      american cash advance
      cash advance loans reviews
      american cash advance

    25. I value the blog post.Really looking forward to read more. Really Cool.

    26. 21/03/2019 at 9:00 AM

      viagra e outros http://www.viagrakr.com/ viagra cancer

    27. 21/03/2019 at 3:29 PM

      Kepalaph professional online writing services http://www.buyessayxus.com/ – college essay

    28. 21/03/2019 at 7:42 PM

      edusly viagra for sale online http://www.viagrakr.com/ – generic viagra online viagra dosing thucky

    29. 22/03/2019 at 3:36 AM

      how can you trust online custom writing service essay help business plan writer craigslist

    30. 22/03/2019 at 7:47 AM

      Cruicle medicamentul reductil cialis 20mg http://cialisnorxs.com/ – cialis online canada cialis online pharmacy Weexnolo

    31. 22/03/2019 at 7:49 AM

      buy viagra

    32. 22/03/2019 at 3:04 PM

      write my essay

    33. 22/03/2019 at 11:55 PM

      ljjpoehvbf,Wonderful one thank you so much !

    34. 23/03/2019 at 12:51 AM

      laecxycodee,Waw! Its really great and wonderful ever i found. Thank you for sharing this info.

    35. 23/03/2019 at 5:05 AM

      Really informative post.Really thank you! Much obliged.

    36. 23/03/2019 at 6:07 AM

      tamgszcmc,A fascinating discussion is definitely worth comment. I do think that you ought to publish more on this topic, it may not be a taboo ixbfmh,subject but generally folks don’t talk about such subjects. To the next! All the best!!

    37. 23/03/2019 at 10:33 AM

      Say, you got a nice blog. Awesome.

    38. 23/03/2019 at 5:07 PM

      Thanks for sharing, this is a fantastic post.Much thanks again.

    39. 24/03/2019 at 11:37 AM

      jtuekx,Hi there, just wanted to say, I liked this article. It was helpful. Keep on posting!

    40. 24/03/2019 at 4:38 PM

      Jordan 12 Gym Red http://www.jordan12gymred.us.com/
      Nike Outlet satore http://www.nikefactoryoutletstoreonline.com/
      nike factory outlet store online http://www.nikefactoryoutletstoreonline.us/
      Nike Outlet http://www.nikestores.us.com/
      air jordan 33 http://www.jordan33.us/
      cheap jerseys from china http://www.cheapjerseysfromchina.us/
      cheap custom nfl jerseys http://www.customnfljerseys.us/
      air jordan 11 concord http://www.jordan11concord.us.com/
      Jordan 12 Gym Red http://www.jordan12gymred.us/
      Jordan 12 Gym Red 2018 http://www.redjordan12.us/
      Yeezy http://www.yeezy.com.co/
      Yeezy http://www.yeezys.us.com/

    41. 24/03/2019 at 5:11 PM

      easy money loans
      loans
      cash loans to your door
      loans

    42. 24/03/2019 at 5:41 PM

      unsecured bad credit loans
      same day payday loans
      ez payday loans
      usa payday loans

    43. 24/03/2019 at 10:06 PM

      udwbrko,Quality blog, keep up the good work. You may check our website also!

    44. 25/03/2019 at 12:25 AM

      ubdasrij,Are you searching for top class Escort service in Noida and want to enjoy with them, hire sexy girls from top Greater Noida escort service and enjoy full night.

    45. 25/03/2019 at 12:36 AM

      Your Blog is very unique in comparison to other folks I’ve read stuff from. Thanks for posting when you’ve got the opportunity, Guess I’ll just bookmark this blog. https://issuu.com/kdiaryhonnt/docs/root-criteria-in-new-york-personal-

    46. 25/03/2019 at 4:11 AM

      payday loans in los angeles
      bad credit loans guaranteed approval
      fast loans for bad credit
      installment loans bad credit

    47. 25/03/2019 at 6:54 AM

      owxymiwatkp,Definitely believe that which you said. Your favourite justification appeared to be on the net the simplest thing to remember of.

    48. 25/03/2019 at 8:28 AM

      kjaahlqbdi,Are you searching for top class Escort service in Noida and want to enjoy with them, hire sexy girls from top Greater Noida escort service and enjoy full night.

    49. 25/03/2019 at 12:20 PM

      Jordan 12 Gym Red 2018 http://www.jordan12gymred.us.com/
      nike factory outlet store online http://www.nikefactoryoutletstoreonline.com/
      nike factory outlet store online http://www.nikefactoryoutletstoreonline.us/
      Nike Store http://www.nikestores.us.com/
      jordan 33 http://www.jordan33.us/
      cheapjerseysfromchina http://www.cheapjerseysfromchina.us/
      custom nfl jerseys http://www.customnfljerseys.us/
      jordan 11 concord http://www.jordan11concord.us.com/
      Jordan 12 Gym Red http://www.jordan12gymred.us/
      Jordan 12 Gym Red http://www.redjordan12.us/
      Yeezy http://www.yeezy.com.co/
      Yeezys http://www.yeezys.us.com/
      Yeezy Supply http://www.yeezysupply.us.com/
      Yeezy Sneakers http://www.yeezy-shoes.us.com/
      Yeezy Boost http://www.yeezy-boost350.com/
      Yeezy Boost 350 http://www.yeezyboost350.us.com/
      Yeezy Boost 350 V2 Blue Tint http://www.yeezybluetint.com/
      Adidas Yeezy 500 http://www.yeezy500utilityblack.com/
      Adidas Yeezy 500 http://www.yeezy500utilityblack.us/
      Vapor Max http://www.vapor-max.org.uk/
      Salomon UK http://www.salomon-shoes.org.uk/
      Salomon Shoes http://www.salomons.me.uk/
      Salomon Shoes http://www.salomonspeedcross4.org.uk/
      Off White Jordan http://www.offwhitejordan1.com/
      Vapor Max http://www.nikevapormax.org.uk/
      React Element 87 http://www.nikereactelement87.us.com/
      Nike React Element 87 http://www.nikereactelement87.us/
      Nike Vapormax Plus http://www.nikeplus.us/
      Nike Outlet Online http://www.nike–outlet.us/
      Nike Outlet Store http://www.nikeoutletstoreonlineshopping.us/
      Nike Outlet http://www.nikeoutletonlineshopping.us/
      NBA Jerseys http://www.nikenbajerseys.us/
      Air Max Nike http://www.nikeairmax.us/
      Air Max 2017 http://www.max2017.us/
      Air Jordan Shoes http://www.jordan-com.com/
      Jordan 11 Concord http://www.jordan11-concord.com/
      Kanye West Yeezys Boost Shoes http://www.cs7boots1.com/
      Cheap NBA Jerseys http://www.cheapnba-jerseys.us/
      Birkenstock UK http://www.birkenstocksandalsuk.me.uk/
      Basketball Jersey http://www.basketball-jersey.us/
      Balenciaga http://www.balenciaga.me.uk/
      Balenciaga UK http://www.balenciagauk.org.uk/
      Balenciaga http://www.balenciagatriples.org.uk/
      Balenciaga http://www.birkenstocks.me.uk/
      Balenciaga Trainers http://www.balenciagatrainers.org.uk/
      Nike Air Max http://www.airmax270.org.uk/
      Yeezy Shoes http://www.adidasyeezyshoes.org.uk/
      Adidas Yeezy http://www.adidasyeezyshoes.org.uk/

    50. 25/03/2019 at 5:20 PM

      xchrpfzxxim,If you are going for best contents like I do, just go to see this web page daily because it offers quality contents, thanks!

    51. 25/03/2019 at 9:28 PM

      Muchos Gracias for your post.Really thank you! Cool.

    52. 26/03/2019 at 1:46 PM

      dhviglibi,Very informative useful, infect very precise and to the point. I’m a student a Business Education and surfing things on Google and found your website and found it very informative.

    53. 27/03/2019 at 10:16 AM

      pwdonklvjha,Thanks a lot for providing us with this recipe of Cranberry Brisket. I’ve been wanting to make this for a long time but I couldn’t find the right recipe. Thanks to your help here, I can now make this dish easily.

    54. 27/03/2019 at 8:18 PM

      ghost writing services rates
      write my essay
      custom writer
      essay writer free

    55. 28/03/2019 at 1:10 AM

      e59eYi ebnsvpejsndq, [url=http://hofumejcduan.com/]hofumejcduan[/url], [link=http://spsfboieibef.com/]spsfboieibef[/link], http://rlqtxdsdoctz.com/

    56. 28/03/2019 at 6:57 AM

      writing custom code for reporting services 2015
      types of essays
      business letter writing services in simi valley2c california
      expository essay

    57. 29/03/2019 at 2:02 PM

      I am just writing to make you know what a really good experience my friend’s princess enjoyed checking the blog. She even learned so many issues, which included what it’s like to possess an awesome helping character to let others clearly gain knowledge of specific problematic topics. You really did more than our desires. Thanks for delivering these informative, dependable, revealing and unique tips on your topic to Ethel.

    58. 29/03/2019 at 8:27 PM

      http://cialisbgo.com/
      buy cialis online doctor
      buy cialis
      discount buy generic cialis online
      generic cialis

    59. 30/03/2019 at 12:33 AM

      http://buypropranololonlinenorx.us.com/ – this site

    60. 30/03/2019 at 12:40 AM

      tadacip

    61. 30/03/2019 at 12:46 AM

      tenormin 50 mg

    62. 30/03/2019 at 12:49 AM

      buy tadacip 20 mg

    63. 30/03/2019 at 12:58 AM

      cost of bactrim

    64. 30/03/2019 at 1:12 AM

      http://cialisplrx.com/
      viagra cialis levitra combo packs
      http://cialisplrx.com
      healtyman viagra
      order cialis online

    65. 30/03/2019 at 7:58 AM

      elocon 0.1 cream

    66. 30/03/2019 at 8:06 AM

      http://clozaril.network/ – found here

    67. 30/03/2019 at 8:11 AM

      arimidex weight loss

    68. 30/03/2019 at 8:29 AM

      I truly appreciate this blog. Cool.

    69. 30/03/2019 at 9:42 AM

      sildenafil

    70. 30/03/2019 at 10:11 AM

      paxil viagra

    71. 30/03/2019 at 10:17 AM

      nolvadex tamoxifen

    72. 30/03/2019 at 10:26 AM

      albenza zithromax

    73. 30/03/2019 at 12:40 PM

      http://cialisbuygen.com
      can i buy misoprostol at walgreens
      http://www.cialisbuygen.com
      overnight delivery buy levitra online
      http://cialisbuygen.com

    74. 30/03/2019 at 3:44 PM

      renova tretinoin cream

    75. 30/03/2019 at 3:53 PM

      http://medrol.network/ – medrol

    76. 30/03/2019 at 4:05 PM

      cialis

    77. 30/03/2019 at 4:50 PM

      amantadine

    78. 30/03/2019 at 6:23 PM

      synthroid

    79. 30/03/2019 at 11:39 PM

      http://femaleviagra.network/ – tadalafil for women

    80. 30/03/2019 at 11:48 PM

      read more here